> Greg wrote:
> Hello I'm Charlie's preacher: I see that you will probably chop this and
> post parts of it on your web sight, along with your heckels. so I humbly
> ask of you that you do not split the paragraphs. thank you.
I'm pondering your Freudian slip there, "web sight" versus the proper
spelling "web site". Are you suggesting that my site shows insight? :o)
As for breaking the message up (as I am doing now), this is proper
point/counterpoint AS HAS BEEN DEVELOPED OVER SEVERAL DECADES here on the
Internet. Back in the 80's the delimiter was the pipe symbol [|] which later
changed to the greater than symbol [>] but the idea is the same. This
technique developed out of need, and I see it as quite practical, I'm sorry you
disagree with it. Note that I do not edit or change your message, you will be
posted as you sent it to me, as will this message. :o)
> Charlie is a personal friend of mine, and he asked me to speak with you, in
> the hope that you might find the joy he found in "Faith in Jesus" so I went
> to your web site and had a look.
Joy, love, and peace are illusions formed in ones own mind, the same is
true for friendship. These things are evolutionary components that assure our
propagation and survival. Feeling love for a mythical creature like jesus is
at best, a form of self-inflicted mental illness. Most people it seems use
religion as a comfort/crutch and I can understand such a use.
> First of all I want to applaud you for not being ashamed of your faith.
> Our Lord said "I would that you were hot or cold" and you sir qualify as
> "hot or cold" you are certainly not lukewarm.
I'm an extremist, and I do tend to see more black/white than grey. I'm
not sure if this is a good thing, but it DOES make me an EXCELLENT Scientist!
> In all fairness to Charlie; you completely side stepped the C14 point. Now
> perhaps this is because you misunderstood him, so I will put it in my own
> words. "Carbon fourteen is not yet in equilibrium" it should have reached
> this state within 30k years yet it is measurablely short of equilibrium and
> this also implies that the older any organic mater is that is age dated
> using C14 the more grossly over aged it would appear. I do realize that
> most people don't know that C14 only works for Organic mater and that a few
> hundred thousand years is the limit of it's possible range. Yet this one
> fact implies a young earth and there are hundreds of such facts that point
> toward a young (Created) earth and universe [for more information see
> answersingenesis.org or icr.com]
As I've stated before, this brand of bogus science has been shown to be
false by _every_ learned Scientist out there. I will try to do my best to
debunk your theory in this message. As stated above, your argument may be best
described (in simple terms) as filling a bucket with many small holes in the
bottom, with water. There is a hose at the top, continually adding water. The
water coming from the hose is analogous to the continuous production of C14 in
the extreme upper atmosphere. The bucket represents the earth's atmosphere in
which the C14 accumulates. The water leaking out the bottom of the bucket
represents the continuous loss of C14 (radioactive decay). As the bucket gets
closer to full, more water is going to leak out through the holes, just as more
C14 will decay if you have more of it in the atmosphere. Finally, when the
water reaches some certain level in the barrel, the amount of water going into
the barrel is equal to the amount leaking out of the holes. This is what you
describe above, the input and output of water is in _equilibrium_. The water
level remains _constant_ even though the hose is still running continuously.
Your argument hinges upon the idea that the bucket is still in the process of
being filled up, and that given the present rate of water coming in and leaking
out, the filling process began only however many few thousand years ago as the
bible claims. This is the basis for your (creationist) argument. This
argument has several flaws which I will describe now.
The major flaw in the argument is that the water is not coming out of
the hose at a steady, even rate as your model assumed, while the rate of decay
is VERY MUCH constant! We know that sometimes the inflow slows down to a
trickle so that much more water is leaking out the barrel than is coming in,
and sometimes it goes full throttle, so that a lot more water is coming into
the bucket than is leaking out. Thus, the mere fact that the present rate of
water coming in exceeds that of the water leaking out cannot be extrapolated
back to a starting time, and that DESTROYS the entire creationist argument.
Tree ring dating gives us an ideal test of the radiocarbon dating
method for the last 8000 years. We can use C14 dating on each individual tree
ring (the 8000 year sequence having been assembled from the overlapping tree
ring patterns for both living and dead trees) and comparing the resulting age
with the actual count of the rings. A study of the deviations from the accurate
tree ring dating sequence shows that the earth's magnetic field has always had
an important effect on C14 production. When the dipole moment is strong, C14
production is suppressed below normal; when weak, C14 production is boosted
above normal. Why this happens is because the magnetic field partially shields
the earth from cosmic rays which produce the C14.
During the last 8000 years, the earth's magnetic field has fluctuated
and those fluctuations have induced fluctuations in the production of C14 to a
noticeable extent. Therefore, your (standard creationist) claim that C14 has
been slowly building up towards a 30,000 year equilibrium is worthless.
We may also conclude that the atmospheric variation in C14 production
is not a serious problem with the C14 dating method, and thus we may dismiss the
creationist "young earth" argument as completely, and evidently, false.
> I see clearly that you do not want to be converted. Okay! I wish you
> would reconsider but I understand.
Being "converted" is no better than being "infected" with any other
disease. The christ meme is DETRIMENTAL to all those infected with it. This
detriment manifests itself in many ways which I have previously described.
> Well, us "Poor Miserable, Misguided"
> Christians don't want converted to your faith either. but on the outside
> chance that someone who hasn't made their mind up yet may read this; why not
> let them hear both sides and decide for themselves (to talk to an antiChrist
> email@example.com :::or a Christian firstname.lastname@example.org )
Become seriously ill, and _then_ we'll see which god you choose, jesus
or Science! Everyone (regardless of their faith) abandons their god when they
enter a hospital for treatment, and the MILLIONS of people who would otherwise
have died (as many have before us in the past, from what are now considered to
be minor afflictions) attest to the efficacy of Science versus religion or
faith. If you have EVER taken an antibiotic, you are a hypocrite, and living
proof that Science works! Prior to antibiotics, a family would have six
children hoping TWO OR THREE would survive to adulthood. Today, mostly thanks
to the invention of chlorinated water, pasteurization of milk, and antibiotic
therapy, a family can have TWO children, and BOTH will survive to adulthood.
Don't try to argue against me on this, you KNOW it is true! :o)
> as for the question you so often ask in your attacks against the Faith of
> Christ; "if there is a God why all the suffering?" well we bring a lot of
> that on ourselves and our posterity through disobedience "sin" but the most
> of it seems to come from your father the devil:
You are making another assumption. I do not worship satan, because
guess what? Satan is A LIE! For the christ meme to have virulence, it MUST
have a compliance provision, and of course, the satan myth is that method.
> go back and read Job some
> time. (just a note if you don't believe in God it would be illogical to
> believe in satan so why be offended)
I'm not offended, why would you think I was? You've read the content,
granted, my images are rather gothic, and what some might deem "satanic", and I
often play with art and style as a form of expression, but I assure you, I do
not believe in ANY gods, demons, witches, or devils! Christ is a lie, satan is
a lie, and god is a lie. Allah is a lie, yahweh is a lie, and thor is a lie.
> in the book of Job we read that satan
> came before the Lord and ask for permission to afflict Job who was a
> righteous man. we also find that after a brief trial God had pity on Job
> and restored unto him twofold, and healed him, and lengthened his life.
This is an alleged event, unless you can find court admissible
evidence, we MUST logically dismiss it as inadmissible evidence, and thus
conclude that it is most probably false. What works in court, and what works
in the lab (the Scientific Method) works for me! :o) Imagine how horrible
this country would be if the courts ALLOWED inadmissible hearsay evidence (such
as the bible) in court cases? People could in theory get away with murdering
their own children (infanticide, severe child abuse) by simply abiding by what
is in the bible (Deuteronomy 21:20-21) Even Jeffrey Dahmer attempted to use
the bible to justify his actions, for you see, like with moses, a voice in his
head (god) told him to kill people for a righteous and just reason. :o)
> but you feel it your duty to fight against God. why is that ?????
I fight against shamen like you who perpetuate the lie, and infect
people with the pie in the sky, infinite gain scenario. YOU are the vector for
the christ meme, I combat the christ meme and FREE people!
> how can you hate someone who doesn't exist; if indeed He doesn't?????
Christ and god are myths, as are thor allah and even ra. I've
expressed over and over (read at the bottom of "NEW! A WARNING from a former
christian in Belgium. NEW!" which is the link immediately below Charlie's. I'm
(albeit mildly) attacking one of my own, an atheist (whom I proclaim is not
really atheist, but rather an angry christian). It appears in his email that he
doesn't dismiss christ as a lie, but rather is angry that prayer is ineffective
or that god/jesus/whatever didn't listen to him or care about him.
> and if Christianity is only a made-up religion to enslave people why do not
> the enlightened such as yourself use it for your gain after all if this life
> is all there is then get all you can out of it right?????
We don't do that, but the nazi's sure did! I abide by my instinctive
set of morals I was born with. My mission is to FREE people, while yours is to
ENSLAVE them, you and I are diametric opposites. The morals of which it appears
that I was born with, is what makes me feel bad when I lie, or when I steal,
and what keeps me from doing such things. Some people are born without morals
(morals are genetic, NOT learned behavior) and even tho they believe in god or
jesus, they STILL commit crimes (such as the many priests who are now being
dragged into court for child molestation, and a recent one, vehicular homicide).
Linkname: Bishop Charged in Fatal Hit-and-Run Case
> you made the accusation once that science had to prove it's self but
> religion couldn't well there is far less "proof" for evolution than there is
> for a young earth "creation" and most scientists see this even though many
> hold on to "the theory" anyway. and for the record don't take my word for it
> or the guy that butchers this article and posts it on the web; search the
> web look for the truth.
I already covered this in my conversation with Charlie. Please go back
and read that message, it's posted on the website. More evidence exists to
show evolution is true than creationism. In fact, there is absolutely NO valid
evidence to suggest creation is true (not even ONE shred of evidence)!
Contrary, there are VOLUMES of physical evidence suggesting evolution. The
latest virus (SARS) jumped from animal to man, THIS is positive evolution.
> many laws of science have changed laws that men
> believed governed the natural world, then new information was added and the
> old law had to be rewritten. so then anyone leaning solely on science has a
> shaky foundation at best;
These are funny arguments coming from a shaman, for you see, Science is
continually improving, updating invalid ideas with better or more factual ones.
SHOW ME WHERE THIS HAS APPLIED TO THE BIBLE? How many revisions of the bible
have there been? NONE! Thus, because we (Scientists) continually build upon
the knowledge of the old, with the knowledge of those who come after us, our
religion [Science] is continually improving. No, it's not yet perfect, and it
will never be, because the more we answer, the more questions we raise.
However, I'll put my faith in Science and NOT in religious myth.
> how can you believe in an absolute without an
> absolute authority if there is an absolute authority who, or what is it, or
I don't believe in an absolute, but it appears you do. :o)
> Man has kept written historical records for about six thousand years now;
> from the first writings to the present there have been those that have tried
> to turn us from our God.
The chinese record history PRIOR to noah's flood, and they were not on
the ark, so how could that be, unless you conclude the flood is also a myth (or
rather, an exaggeration of a great, but not cataclysmic flood). Any such
fantastic flood should have ALSO been recorded by the chinese, right?
> You must remember that the Christian faith did not
> start with Jesus of Nazareth it is the faith of Abraham Isaac and Jacob the
> same grace that Noah found and it has stood the tests of time, persecution,
> and war.
Noah was a man who heard voices in his head telling him to kill people.
Charley manson was a man who heard voices in his head telling him to kill
people. Which one of these men was a crazed schizophrenic killer? BOTH!
> Yes the Church of Jesus Christ shall stand forever come what may.
Nope, statistically, christianity is in decline. Again see my message
to Charlie for proof. :o) Eventually christianity will die out, with or
WITHOUT my help. I'm just creating performance art here, nothing more.
Gabriel is one of but a few people whom we've helped, most are unaffected.
> so good luck with you program and endeavors you'll need luck or maybe a
> miracle (sorry I forgot you don't believe in them) to rid this world that
> God made of Faith in him.
I don't need luck, attrition is on my side. :o)
> Yes I admit that it sounds a little like a paradox; but, Jesus said "You
> must become a Christian before you can understand Christianity" so it never
> surprises me when someone like you asks about death disease suffering or
> hell. or even when they shake their fist at God and raise their voice
> against the Almighty.
I already understand the 2nd law of thermodynamics (which explains why
disease and death exists). I may not LIKE it, and I may not WANT it, but as a
Scientist, I am able to UNDERSTAND it, and thus, accept it as a part of life.
Nowhere on my website will you see me raise my voice against god,
because I REPEATEDLY ASSERT that god is in fact, a lie.
> but I can't possibly explain these things to someone
> who doesn't want to hear, who isn't asking because they are interested but
> because they wish to argue or justify their opinion.
You can't explain them, because you don't understand YOURSELF why your
god, for example, created SARS, and gave it to a christian missionary, who then
went back home to Toronto to infect and kill most of the people in his parish,
and many hundreds of other people in and around the Toronto area. The lame
excuse you give above does not wash with me, nor with my readers. :o)
> now as you set and refute all that I have written may the God you appose
> bless you richly (Ac 3:26 KJV)
Happy thoughts are nice, and I like people who have happy thoughts to
one another. I wish you wisdom, and truth, and to be rid of the christ meme.
> In my weakness defending the Faith of Jesus Christ the
> Lord; Greg
Why do you choose to be weak? Knowledge on the other hand makes one
STRONG! I've never understood why one would choose NOT to be intelligent!
James - Scholar, Teacher, Atheist!